Who Said Hyphens Are Worth Nothing

[snoopy]

Even if the site was communicated via speech/audio - then the other person - if they really were interested - would be writing the domain name down. After the first visit they would either have completed a transaction, bookmarked the site or have the domain cached such that when they do enter the first few letters of the domain the closest matches show up or if the keyword appears in the URI then ditto provided the history is retained in the browser or the site is bookmarked.

It is simply a fact that people gets domains wrong, hyphens missing, .com.au instead of .net.au. The key question si to what degree sales will be lost rather than debating what people might do in my view.

As for ranking in the SERPs, it's every site for itself.

The point is, the harder the address is to remember, the greater the chance of customers going to a competing site. Relying on search engines isn't a solution to a clumsy domain in my view.

Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it isn't logical. Is Instagr.am worth $1 billion to you?

You can see my views on it here.

http://www.dntrade.com.au/amazing-app-success-t4921.html

Short answer, I think it is clear that the company was worth a lot of money. Has nothing to do with domains really.

 

[Rhythm]

I don't know why you still imagine people type-in domain names over and over again after the first time and that direct navigation still exists because people prefer to struggle to remember a domain rather than keep a shortcut/app on the desktop/phone/tablet, or a bookmark.

I've seen first-hand how users use the internet. It isn't what they 'might' do: it is what they are doing.

The harder the address is to remember, the likelier it is they'll search for it - all browsers have built-in search from the address bar.

 

[snoopy]

I don't know why you still imagine people type-in domain names over and over again after the first time and that direct navigation still exists because people prefer to struggle to remember a domain rather than keep a shortcut/app on the desktop/phone/tablet, or a bookmark.

Above isn't something I have said though. I'm say people regularly get domains wrong, and hyphens are hard to remember.

The key question is what % of sales are lost when a company uses a hyphen, I think it is significant enough that the vast majority would stay well clear of these domains, and of those companies who do use them, they'll typically realise it was a mistake in time and attempt to change, like byron-bay.com.

The harder the address is to remember, the likelier it is they'll search for it - all browsers have built-in search from the address bar.

The doesn't make using hard to remember domains with hyphens or .net.au a good idea. If visitors need to search for something because they can't remember it there is a higher chance they will not get there.

 

[acheeva]

I don't know why you still imagine people type-in domain names over and over again after the first time and that direct navigation still exists because people prefer to struggle to remember a domain rather than keep a shortcut/app on the desktop/phone/tablet, or a bookmark.

I've seen first-hand how users use the internet. It isn't what they 'might' do: it is what they are doing.

The harder the address is to remember, the likelier it is they'll search for it - all browsers have built-in search from the address bar.

I would expect this to be the case; however here are the stats for a couple of parked domains that have no search for the past month:-

#1 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 115; Revenue $67.51
#2 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 51; Revenue $34.22
#3 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 48; Revenue $20.12

They have few or no exacts; so the only source of the clicks can be type in & they outperform 100's of domains with over 5,000 hits

So there are at least a few hundred people who type-in the address for these 3 names. Extrapolate that across millions of domains & there is a percentage of the population (albeit small) that don't use the search bar

 

[johno69]

From my experience, I guess with a less than savvy user base, but still web users none the less, is that they search for EVERYTHING.

I often see clients search for simple sites like facebook rather than type in the address.

I'm a fan of Ctrl+Enter etc so I don't fit that mould however.

On another note, tonight on the NRL I noticed a hyphenated domain being promoted by the commentary team.

nine-live.com.au they were plugging. (reg to Ticketek Pty Limited)

 

[Rhythm]

Above isn't something I have said though.

You don't need to. It is just the underlying principle of your reasoning without which your arguments becomes irrelevant:

I'm say people regularly get domains wrong, and hyphens are hard to remember.

The key question is what % of sales are lost when a company uses a hyphen, I think it is significant enough that the vast majority would stay well clear of these domains, and of those companies who do use them, they'll typically realise it was a mistake in time and attempt to change, like byron-bay.com.

What would you consider to be a significant % of lost sales?

The doesn't make using hard to remember domains with hyphens or .net.au a good idea. If visitors need to search for something because they can't remember it there is a higher chance they will not get there.

Oh they won't be searching for it willingly - Google/Chrome and Microsoft/IE have all but hijacked the address bar.

 

[Rhythm]

I would expect this to be the case; however here are the stats for a couple of parked domains that have no search for the past month:-

#1 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 115; Revenue $67.51
#2 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 51; Revenue $34.22
#3 Search (Hits) 0; Clicks 48; Revenue $20.12

They have few or no exacts; so the only source of the clicks can be type in & they outperform 100's of domains with over 5,000 hits

So there are at least a few hundred people who type-in the address for these 3 names. Extrapolate that across millions of domains & there is a percentage of the population (albeit small) that don't use the search bar

Hi

What about backlinks?

And who are you parking with?

 

[DavidL]

Snoopy, you keep referring to how people relying on search engines is risky or something that people are forced into to make up for an inferior domain name.

However what you fail to understand is that the internet is the place to market IMO.

Sure, hyphen domains etc may suffer if used in a TV campaign, billboards, radio, magazines etc but there's actually nothing wrong in only considering the search engines & Adwords to promote your business, in which case hyphen domains may be a cost effective option.

My car business employs 35 people and relies solely on organic and PPC for new business and has done for the last 10 years. We've dabbled with every other type of marketing but nothing compares from a ROI perspective.

Don't underestimate the power of the search engines, snoopy!

 

[snoopy]

Snoopy, you keep referring to how people relying on search engines is risky or something that people are forced into to make up for an inferior domain name.

However what you fail to understand is that the internet is the place to market IMO.

Of course the internet is the place to market, but by choosing a clumsy name the person will lose sales from every other marketing method that isn't a direct link. Some of that includes word of mouth, repeat visitors etc. Hyphens or .net.au is no way to build a business, which is is why very few use it and the ones who do need/want to change eventually.

My car business employs 35 people and relies solely on organic and PPC for new business and has done for the last 10 years.

So are you saying nobody would ever recommend that business to a friend (word of mouth), and that nobody would every want to use you again (repeat buyers)? These are marketing methods that need a non clumsy domain in my view.

Do you use a hyphen or .net.au?

 

[DavidL]

Of course the internet is the place to market, but by choosing a clumsy name the person will lose sales from every other marketing method that isn't a direct link.

Possibly... no you're right, probably. But that business lost might be negligible in a lot of cases. The worst case scenario - someone misspelling a name and going to a competitor is only going to happen if:

a) the name is generic (assuming otherwise the business owner could claim infringement and claim the name) AND
b) a direct competitor has developed on that name AND
c) the user doesn't realise their mistake.

I don't think that happens too often in reality.

Some of that includes word of mouth, repeat visitors etc. Hyphens or .net.au is no way to build a business, which is is why very few use it and the ones who do need/want to change eventually.

Depending how their business evolves.

So are you saying nobody would ever recommend that business to a friend (word of mouth), and that nobody would every want to use you again (repeat buyers)? These are marketing methods that need a non clumsy domain in my view.

Of course they would and do. But they probably don't verbally spell out the domain that they pass onto their mate either. More likely they

1) forward a newsletter
2) tell them to Google it
3) Like the business page on FB
4) pass on a phone number
5) copy and paste the link

or countless other ways

Do you use a hyphen or .net.au?

No, and the non-internet marketing (TV, radio, newspapers etc) still flopped.

 

[snoopy]

Possibly... no you're right, probably. But that business lost might be negligible in a lot of cases. The worst case scenario - someone misspelling a name and going to a competitor is only going to happen if:

If think it was even a few % that is significant enough to warrant not using the name, even less than 1%. The actual saving from not going with a better name is likely be be far lower than the sales lost. Say the company does it to "save" $2000, it wouldn't take that many lost sales to make buying the hyphen a bad deal.

a) the name is generic (assuming otherwise the business owner could claim infringement and claim the name) AND
b) a direct competitor has developed on that name AND
c) the user doesn't realise their mistake.

a) I don't know why anyone would use a hyphen on a non generic brand type name (where is the advantage?), it is likely to be a generic term.
b) Given a) it is going to be a competitor of some sort, a direct competitor, a park page, etc.
c) Some users will not realise the mistakes, the unknown is the exact %. Some will realise and buy via the new site.

1) forward a newsletter
2) tell them to Google it
3) Like the business page on FB
4) pass on a phone number
5) copy and paste the link

No people don't tell each other web addresses, the quote phone numbers instead. The year is 1925.....

Do you use a hyphen or .net.au?

No, and the non-internet marketing (TV, radio, newspapers etc) still flopped.

Story:

Johnny: Dude if you want to pick up chicks you need to present yourself better.
Dan: Get real, that isn't the reason!
Johnny: Ok how about at least wearing a pair of pants next time you go out?
Dan: I tried that last week, I wore a pair of pants and still couldn't pick up.
Johnny: Yes dude.....obviously there is no point wearing a pair of pants then.

 

[DavidL]

Oh snoopy... homework for you:

1) Re-read my posts in this thread
2) Develop and SEO a domain so you can understand the power of a keyword domain (even a hyphen)
3) look up the definition of 'negligible'

Cheers

 

[snoopy]

2) Develop and SEO a domain so you can understand the power of a keyword domain (even a hyphen)

I understand the benefit. The point is why use hyphen domain or .net.au when you could use something more logical instead? ie an unhyhenated.com.au in the same or related keyword.

In my view the cases where the person will be better off going for the .net.au or hyphen is very limited, mostly those who use them will eventually realise it was a mistake as their business grows.

All the above is coming from a man who does not use .net.au or hyphens himself, so I guess it is great for others but not you.

 

[DavidL]

The 'why' is because they are typically many times cheaper. Nobody believes that they are preferable.

You pointed out an example today where the net.au was 100 times cheaper and went to pains to express how it was a perfect comparison

David, If two domains are sold at the same time via auction at the same venue that is the best comparison there ever will be

So, if the domain is 100 times cheaper and one accepts that possibly you risk losing 0.001% of repeat/referral business, one can make a calculated decision.

Oh one other thing - not everybody buys a domain to make a business out of it. Sometimes the most that's ever expected is that it will be a website that will deliver a steady revenue over the years through monetising the traffic.

I do only have a few hundred net.au's, that's true. And I'm annoyed at myself for overlooking them over the years.

 

[snoopy]

The 'why' is because they are typically many times cheaper. Nobody believes that they are preferable.

You pointed out an example today where the net.au was 100 times cheaper and went to pains to express how it was a perfect comparison

To take that example, the .com.au being worth $3000 and the .net.au worth $20. For it to make sense to buy the .net.au it would need to be a tiny business in my view, ie part time hobby business. For anyone else it wouldn't take that long for the $3000 to be lost by people going somewhere else.

So, if the domain is 100 times cheaper and one accepts that possibly you risk losing 0.001% of repeat/referral business, one can make a calculated decision.

0.001% of repeat/referral business? So you think 1 in every 100,000 repeat order would be lost because of the the domain? I think it would be more like 1/30 to 1/100 or all orders with a much higher rate of repeat and referral people not finding it.

Oh one other thing - not everybody buys a domain to make a business out of it. Sometimes the most that's ever expected is that it will be a website that will deliver a steady revenue over the years through monetising the traffic.

They would still have a lot of the same issues, only on the scale of it (small) it probably won't be as apparent. If it is purely reliant on SEO though, and has minimal repeat visitors appeal (which probably means a pretty low quality site), then that is probably the place for this type of domain I think.

 

[DavidL]

To take that example, the .com.au being worth $3000 and the .net.au worth $20. For it to make sense to buy the .net.au it would need to be a tiny business in my view, ie part time hobby business. For anyone else it wouldn't take that long for the $3000 to be lost by people going somewhere else. .

Yes of course but a $20 name, is rarely worth developing on its inherent value, net.au or otherwise.

0.001% of repeat/referral business? So you think 1 in every 100,000 repeat order would be lost because of the the domain?

oops - sorry I meant total business. And it was just an estimate.

I think it would be more like 1/30 to 1/100 or all orders with a much higher rate of repeat and referral people not finding it.

I think that's way too high for any business. As I said before, to lose real business they would have to a) make the mistake, b) have the mistaken URL developed by a competitor and c) not realise the mistake.

10% of business written might be in the form of a referral.
Of that the referral might be made through a 'spoken' domain name (rather than a 'Google these guys' or a 'Here's the guy's number/address') in 20% of cases.
Of that maybe 5% might make the mistake.
Of those maybe 20% of the mistaken URLs are developed and do actually compete.
Of that maybe 10% of people don't realise.

0.1*0.2*0.05*0.2*0.1 = 2 in every 100,000 people.

 

[snoopy]

I think that's way too high for any business. As I said before, to lose real business they would have to a) make the mistake, b) have the mistaken URL developed by a competitor and c) not realise the mistake.

I don't think so. When someone say lands on a park page a certain % click through and buy, the parking revenue correlates with real sales lost.

If the site is a developed, and developed well it will likely be a higher % of sales lost. The customer wouldn't have to "not realise the mistake". Some will prefer the offering of the competitor, or the competitor might be better priced. People don't say "gee I made a mistake, I would never buy from this other site", many people like choice.

Some may not even find the proper site, especially the older types, 50+ who get confused and may give up fairly easily. A lot of people can only just work out how to buy something online, let along work out they left off a hyphen in a domain name.

10% of business written might be in the form of a referral.
Of that the referral might be made through a 'spoken' domain name (rather than a 'Google these guys' or a 'Here's the guy's number/address') in 20% of cases.
Of that maybe 5% might make the mistake.
Of those maybe 20% of the mistaken URLs are developed and do actually compete.
Of that maybe 10% of people don't realise.

0.1*0.2*0.05*0.2*0.1 = 2 in every 100,000 people.

If there were a subject called BS Maths you'd have just earned an A+.........Numbers based on nothing at all. At least I only presented couple of random percentages based on nothing, not a whole lot of calculations based on crazy maths.

 

[DavidL]

I don't think so. When someone say lands on a park page a certain % click through and buy, the parking revenue correlates with real sales lost.

But we were talking about referral and repeat business? Surely if someone refers a particular company, the referree is going to try a bit harder and not just click an ad on a parked page and give up? Afetr all, it's not like they are just idly browsing the web.

If the site is a developed, and developed well it will likely be a higher % of sales lost. The customer wouldn't have to "not realise the mistake". Some will prefer the offering of the competitor, or the competitor might be better priced. People don't say "gee I made a mistake, I would never buy from this other site", many people like choice.

Yeah maybe. Although again, we are talking about referral & repeat business. For me, if I'm referred to a company, and I do try and find that particular company and, even offered a choice, I would persevere (at least do a quick Google search).

If there were a subject called BS Maths you'd have just earned an A+.........Numbers based on nothing at all. At least I only presented couple of random percentages based on nothing, not a whole lot of calculations based on crazy maths.

Oh! I'm surprised you couldn't follow it. I really didn't think it was that complicated. I thought it demonstrated quite well the fact that there are so events that have to happen for a company to actually lose real business that, in reality, it's actually quite unlikely.

If you like please dispute the figures, or, even better, explain how your

random percentages based on nothing

illustrate the situation better.

 

[snoopy]

But we were talking about referral and repeat business? Surely if someone refers a particular company, the referree is going to try a bit harder and not just click an ad on a parked page and give up? Afetr all, it's not like they are just idly browsing the web.

Some will try harder, some will buy from the ads they see, some will give up and look for another company. There is no "people will definitely do this" because it is known people click on parked pages and buy products, get redirected to affiliate sites and buy products, get confused and look for another source etc.

Yeah maybe. Although again, we are talking about referral & repeat business. For me, if I'm referred to a company, and I do try and find that particular company and, even offered a choice, I would persevere (at least do a quick Google search).

How we as geeks act is totally different to the average consumer in my view.

Oh! I'm surprised you couldn't follow it. I really didn't think it was that complicated. I thought it demonstrated quite well the fact that there are so events that have to happen for a company to actually lose real business that, in reality, it's actually quite unlikely.

David, I could follow it, it is just made up numbers and calculations with no factual basis to them. As I've said these numbers are unknowns and the figures I've posted above are probably BS as well but at least I din't try and present them as something accurate.

 

[silouette]

hypens

My comments are relating mainly to an offline business model
but can apply to online stores too. This is my opinion only, but based on my real life results.

Its interesting to watch comments about hyphens here so my 2 cents worth. I think some are missing the whole business point of owning a hypen domain if the un hypen term is unavailable. If it earns the end user an income each day and it eventually ends up on page two or ten many years later who cares!

At the end of the day its a bit like plant and machinery a business buys to generate an income and then sell or dispose of that plant after it has had its day. Look at what income that plant or equipment has generated to the business. This is part and parcel of any business generating income from a piece of equipment.

So, if that domain has earnt that business hundreds of thousands over its life is it not a good name because in some domainers eyes it doesnt fit there domain specific mentality approach.

Sorry but Some of the domainers commenting here seem to have the shutters up when it comes to what makes a good domain, forget your metrics, forget your hyphen view, forget your exacts and broad term search views.

If that domain is on first page of Google with a hyphen domain earning that owner thousands then that is the real meaning of making the $ from domaining, so to those here wanting to direct income earning clients to your offline business or online business then do not listen to those negatives here with in my view opinions that are ridiculous , some might give you a nice technical answer but while they keep feeding you with negative rubbish i suggest you go buy that hyphen domain if the other varients are unavailable and start making $ stop procrastinating before its too late. Doing nothing = nothing, doing something = something! (At least)

And yes, i know from first hand the value of a hypen domain as previously stated in this forum.

These are my views but are also proven from real life experience. Again go get that hyphen..