Data Glasses
Top Contributor
it's all good ......the more questions, the more answers
Hyperthetical
- Thread starter koomel
- Start date
it's all good ......the more questions, the more answers
Thanks for your comments guys, not sure how many members on this site, 13 members responding???
I will keep you informed of my progress/demise as I go forward. Interesting to note on another post Cyber Property/Values an example was given about a keyword combined with another totally unrelated word:
"That's basically what the original guys from MoneyBuddy did. They got a "fun name" for next to nothing. It comprised one keyword, and a "slang" word. Together it was memorable. Then they spent time, effort and money developing it - getting links and all those other things that are so important."
Partial matches will increasingly become popular and I am very happy with my kennel of dogs, I think they will earn their tucker!!!
I will keep you informed of my progress/demise as I go forward. Interesting to note on another post Cyber Property/Values an example was given about a keyword combined with another totally unrelated word:
"That's basically what the original guys from MoneyBuddy did. They got a "fun name" for next to nothing. It comprised one keyword, and a "slang" word. Together it was memorable. Then they spent time, effort and money developing it - getting links and all those other things that are so important."
Partial matches will increasingly become popular and I am very happy with my kennel of dogs, I think they will earn their tucker!!!
johno69
Top Contributor
Because it doesn't matter what people say you have your mind set that they are great anyway. You were just here for some back patting obviously.
They have a brandable term and branded their business with it.
Partial matches do not mean almost matches. If nothing else you will simply bleed 90% of your traffic to the better domain. In your case, they are neither brandable, memorable, or anything of value.
But what you really wanted to read was...
They are shit hot domains and you are really onto something nobody else has ever though of. Congratulations !!!
neddy
Top Contributor
Hi koomel - you mentioned that you're an "old bloke", so I thought I would post because I'm also an "old bloke". 
No one on here wants you to fail. That's the most important factor for you to know.
But you've asked for opinions, and they have been honestly given by members that between them have bought and sold many, many domains.
We've also all bought crap domains thinking that we were on to the next best thing. Time and bank balances have proven a lot of us wrong on a few occasions.
Let me give you a prime example (and I'm sure Mike won't mind). Have a look at some of Shags38's old posts. He was into 3D domains in a huge way; and was adamant that they were going to be the next big thing. He talked a good talk initially (just as you are doing now).
Many of us tried to counsel him but to no avail. But ultimately he discovered that the consensus was right - and was man enough to admit the error of his ways.
And Shags has got some great domains these days.
Hope that helps.
No one on here wants you to fail. That's the most important factor for you to know.
But you've asked for opinions, and they have been honestly given by members that between them have bought and sold many, many domains.
We've also all bought crap domains thinking that we were on to the next best thing. Time and bank balances have proven a lot of us wrong on a few occasions.
Let me give you a prime example (and I'm sure Mike won't mind). Have a look at some of Shags38's old posts. He was into 3D domains in a huge way; and was adamant that they were going to be the next big thing. He talked a good talk initially (just as you are doing now).
Many of us tried to counsel him but to no avail. But ultimately he discovered that the consensus was right - and was man enough to admit the error of his ways.
And Shags has got some great domains these days.
Hope that helps.
Honan
Top Contributor
Hi koo mel,
All quality domains in the .com.au space were taken many years ago by 2 or 3 people/ companies circumventing the rules
You can still get quality domains in the .com.au by buying them on the aftermarket or on the drops.
You will not be able to register a quality domain name.
It usually takes about $4000 in wasted reg fees before people new to the game realise this plain simple fact.
One good domain name will make a person happy. 200 crap, convoluted names make for creative arguments about why they are good, however just lose you $4000
P.s I am a really old bloke, with only half a brain , so feel free to ignore me
Free advice is usually worth you paid for it.
And whatever you do, don't listen to that young whippersnapper, Ned
Some here will remember others who tried adding various letters to key words .
Your idea reminds me of the promoters of the sub domains for .au.com
So much money went down the drain.
Good luck with your idea though
Regards
Joseph
Data Glasses
Top Contributor
up to 14 members
findtim
Top Contributor
honan: luv ya, but gotta disagree on some points
lets start from the top.
"all quality...." yep, but a lot are now up for sale right now ! so don't waste money on shit doms and just get a good one.
"ama and drops" yes, there are HEAPS of great doms dropping for really good prices.
"$4k to learn" thankfully i didn't do that, even before i found DNT, getting into DNT instead of lurking will save you thousands of dollars, i would say HONESTLY it has saved me $20K in since i got involved, and i CAN back that statement up, but i'm not going to tell you how as i signed off on it.
"ONE good domain.........." , yep, true, but i only got mine by buying small and building and selling which gave me the money to them buy bigger, "there are many ways to skin a...."
"ignore you" well that would be just silly.
"free advice..." well thats DNT, there is a reason why people mentor people, because the mentor also LEARNS.... the lack of knowledge from the pupil gives a rawness to the concept... they are not burdened by RULES.
"ned", we all know you are joking so i'll leave it as that
"good luck with ...." i see a "3d" fallout coming on.
tim
lets start from the top.
"all quality...." yep, but a lot are now up for sale right now ! so don't waste money on shit doms and just get a good one.
"ama and drops" yes, there are HEAPS of great doms dropping for really good prices.
"$4k to learn" thankfully i didn't do that, even before i found DNT, getting into DNT instead of lurking will save you thousands of dollars, i would say HONESTLY it has saved me $20K in since i got involved, and i CAN back that statement up, but i'm not going to tell you how as i signed off on it.
"ONE good domain.........." , yep, true, but i only got mine by buying small and building and selling which gave me the money to them buy bigger, "there are many ways to skin a...."
"ignore you" well that would be just silly.
"free advice..." well thats DNT, there is a reason why people mentor people, because the mentor also LEARNS.... the lack of knowledge from the pupil gives a rawness to the concept... they are not burdened by RULES.
"ned", we all know you are joking so i'll leave it as that
"good luck with ...." i see a "3d" fallout coming on.
tim
Chris.C
Top Contributor
Koomel, I said I wouldn't post again in this thread, but since that statement it seems that you have received a bit more feedback and may be a bit more open minded about things now and you were brave enough to at least ask the frank question of "are they worth anything".
So I thought I would chime in again and share some of my experience in case it is of value.
In 2008 there were still lots of good quality names out there.
By 2010 all the $5000+ domains were all pretty much registered.
But even in 2010 I still think there were numerous domains in the $500 to $2500 bracket available for hand reg if you were willing to do some digging.
By 2011 I had basically stopped looking...
Koomel, if you want to get involved in domaining the drops are the best place to start buying domains now, and my recommendation would be not to bid on anything that doesn't already have someone else bidding on it.
In 2011, you could still buy $750 to $2500 domains on the drops for $20 - $100.
Now at the end of 2012, a $750 to $2500 domain will normally set you back $200 - $300 on the drops.
I think a good example of this was getcreditcard.com.au - not the world's greatest domains - but I bought it on NetFleet's expiry auction in 2010 for like $10 or something, it was coming up for renewal and I didn't end up using it as I thought I would, so I decided to liquidate it, and to my surprise it sold yesterday for $167.
So the things that were getting bought on the drops in the $10 - $100 bracket 2 - 3 years ago are generally worth quite a bit more today when sold at auction, but I honestly think this is more to do with domain auctions for AU domains becoming more efficient (ie they are achieving results closer to retail market value) than the retail market value of domains going up by tons (though I'm sure they have gone up somewhat too).
So the game these days is more about those who can buy a $1000 domain for $200 on the drops and can either develop it into a profitable site or who are willing to park it and wait for or find a retail buyer and back themselves to negotiate well.
Can you still go out and hang reg some domains that MIGHT one day be worth something? Maybe.
I think could probably compile a list of a 100 available domains that I think are worth $100 - $200 to a retail buyer and might fetch a $10 to $25 bid on NetFleet...
But of course it's not profitable to buy such domains unless you have a very effective and lean sales process, because these domains are so niche that they aren't worth developing (which is what I prefer to do) unless you are an end user with fatter margins.
Then of course you need to consider that there is $10/year worth of holding costs waiting for the day they MIGHT be worth something and given they are niche they normally have a smaller pool of buyers so a sale can be REALLY difficult.
That said, I still think it is far safer to buy domains on the drops because at least when you buy a $100 domain on an expiry auction you know that someone else was also willing to part with $100 there and then to buy the domain so it sort of validates that the domain has underlying value.
Luckily those duds only made up about 30% of the domains I registered.
I think the important thing that helped me avoid more wasted investment dollars was that in 2009 I only registered about 20 domains as a trial that I thought I could develop into sites and make money from them without needing to sell them.
I then went and made the sites and once I proved that I could make a profit with this strategy I knew I had downside protection to my investment because I could always leverage the value of the domains for myself and didn't ever need to sell them.
Only then did I start throwing thousands of dollars at registering domains. And even then I made many mistakes, but luckily I was generating revenues from sites and a couple sales that more than made up for the bad investments.
The point is, if you are going to fail, fail quick and fail CHEAP.
That's why I said, if you are going to insist on this partial or prefix/suffix strategy do yourself a favour and try and sell a couple on NetFleet first. You'd of had your answer in for less than $100 and in a couple of days.
Prove your model, then make your investment.
So I thought I would chime in again and share some of my experience in case it is of value.
I guess this depends on your definition of "quality".
In 2008 there were still lots of good quality names out there.
By 2010 all the $5000+ domains were all pretty much registered.
But even in 2010 I still think there were numerous domains in the $500 to $2500 bracket available for hand reg if you were willing to do some digging.
By 2011 I had basically stopped looking...
I agree.
Koomel, if you want to get involved in domaining the drops are the best place to start buying domains now, and my recommendation would be not to bid on anything that doesn't already have someone else bidding on it.
In 2011, you could still buy $750 to $2500 domains on the drops for $20 - $100.
Now at the end of 2012, a $750 to $2500 domain will normally set you back $200 - $300 on the drops.
I think a good example of this was getcreditcard.com.au - not the world's greatest domains - but I bought it on NetFleet's expiry auction in 2010 for like $10 or something, it was coming up for renewal and I didn't end up using it as I thought I would, so I decided to liquidate it, and to my surprise it sold yesterday for $167.
So the things that were getting bought on the drops in the $10 - $100 bracket 2 - 3 years ago are generally worth quite a bit more today when sold at auction, but I honestly think this is more to do with domain auctions for AU domains becoming more efficient (ie they are achieving results closer to retail market value) than the retail market value of domains going up by tons (though I'm sure they have gone up somewhat too).
So the game these days is more about those who can buy a $1000 domain for $200 on the drops and can either develop it into a profitable site or who are willing to park it and wait for or find a retail buyer and back themselves to negotiate well.
Can you still go out and hang reg some domains that MIGHT one day be worth something? Maybe.
I think could probably compile a list of a 100 available domains that I think are worth $100 - $200 to a retail buyer and might fetch a $10 to $25 bid on NetFleet...
But of course it's not profitable to buy such domains unless you have a very effective and lean sales process, because these domains are so niche that they aren't worth developing (which is what I prefer to do) unless you are an end user with fatter margins.
Then of course you need to consider that there is $10/year worth of holding costs waiting for the day they MIGHT be worth something and given they are niche they normally have a smaller pool of buyers so a sale can be REALLY difficult.
That said, I still think it is far safer to buy domains on the drops because at least when you buy a $100 domain on an expiry auction you know that someone else was also willing to part with $100 there and then to buy the domain so it sort of validates that the domain has underlying value.
100% agree. When I started out (2009/2010) I definitely registered a couple hundred that were only destined for the expiry auctions.
Luckily those duds only made up about 30% of the domains I registered.
I think the important thing that helped me avoid more wasted investment dollars was that in 2009 I only registered about 20 domains as a trial that I thought I could develop into sites and make money from them without needing to sell them.
I then went and made the sites and once I proved that I could make a profit with this strategy I knew I had downside protection to my investment because I could always leverage the value of the domains for myself and didn't ever need to sell them.
Only then did I start throwing thousands of dollars at registering domains. And even then I made many mistakes, but luckily I was generating revenues from sites and a couple sales that more than made up for the bad investments.
The point is, if you are going to fail, fail quick and fail CHEAP.
That's why I said, if you are going to insist on this partial or prefix/suffix strategy do yourself a favour and try and sell a couple on NetFleet first. You'd of had your answer in for less than $100 and in a couple of days.
Prove your model, then make your investment.
HAHA Ned is definitely worth listening to, it's that Chris.C guy you gotta look out for... talks too much and it is generally all rubbish.
Thanks again guys for sharing your knowledge, it has given me a different insight into domain trading and I hope other newbies take heed of the advice given here.
Trends change, and I guess that is what I was trying to say in this topic, I am contrarian by nature so this type of thinking is me.
One final point on the future of domaining:
Members here have said that they have seen the high quality domains being secured in a short period and that they are basically all gone and that domaining now revolves around the drop market.
If this is the case the following must happen as we go forward:
The quality of domains in the drop market will increasingly fall and the quantity of domain drops will also fall in the future.
Where does that leave domainers in the future?
When a market is tight and prices rise, (as domains will) buyers look for alternatives. I hope they stir up my dogs waiting in their kennels.
Its been good fun guys, thanks.
Trends change, and I guess that is what I was trying to say in this topic, I am contrarian by nature so this type of thinking is me.
One final point on the future of domaining:
Members here have said that they have seen the high quality domains being secured in a short period and that they are basically all gone and that domaining now revolves around the drop market.
If this is the case the following must happen as we go forward:
The quality of domains in the drop market will increasingly fall and the quantity of domain drops will also fall in the future.
Where does that leave domainers in the future?
When a market is tight and prices rise, (as domains will) buyers look for alternatives. I hope they stir up my dogs waiting in their kennels.
Its been good fun guys, thanks.
Data Glasses
Top Contributor
.........development
Blue Wren
Top Contributor
You'd be surprised to hear that many entities fail to renew their domain; usually through forgetting or their contact email is out of date (or some other reason), and the domain drops. 2 years and the domain expires; it does not matter who you are; one must renew or it's gone. It happens every day.
Scan the drops list and you'll see a HEAP of utter rubbish domains that entities register. Quantity won't fall any time soon.
Drops and development <--(as spacey said).
goldnugget
Top Contributor
The basic nuts and bolts of what is hot on the market I think are the basic fabric of society...they need a roof over their heads, they need an income (through the job market or investment), they need to protect the two I have mentioned (insurance) and they need a way to buy it (finance). Outside of that you have the need for food, clothes, and utilities as well as transport and communications....amongst all this...people have less time to drive around, evaluate, purchase, compare (whatever).
There may be more to add to that list, but basicly I think the above covers probably everyday basic needs today in the modern world as far as categories. While the main top domains may be gone for trading purposes for these, there is a lot I think that can be tapped into for development and general income (ppc etc).
Then there is the trends...they come they go, short term, big bang, then gone or melted into mainstream.
In additrion to that though, there will almost always be variants of the above, new trends, terminology changes, search trends change...an assortment of little pockets that could get tapped into later.
I think there is still the opportunity to make good money in domaining, regardless of whether you want to trade, develop or park....but you need to give the public what they are looking for depending on what you want to do with them (the domains).
One thing that has come out of this topic is some ideas for domain names.
I could not resist putting WeatherAu.com.au and ChocolateAu into the kennel.
I also thought there might be a demand for some more that I will post on the domain appraisals board, maybe someone here would like to develope them.
I could not resist putting WeatherAu.com.au and ChocolateAu into the kennel.
I also thought there might be a demand for some more that I will post on the domain appraisals board, maybe someone here would like to develope them.
Chris.C
Top Contributor
The problem with your "contrarian" opinion is that you are arguing with a contrarian minority in that the majority of businesses register their business name and think their is little to no value in keyword rich domains... most domainers are actually already the contrarians.
The first part of your premise is correct, the number of quality expiring domains is falling over time (imho) but that's just gut feel I have never collected any evidence to back that up (though it could be done).
However I'd say this fall in the number of expiring domains is being made up by an increase in the number of domains being sold by private sellers via auction. There are dozens of semi-decent domains being sold by the current domain holders every day.
I actually started a thread about this just a couple of weeks ago and mentioned how it might be a quite the milestone for the industry:
http://www.dntrade.com.au/showthread.php?t=6660
If you are a pure domainer (ie don't develop) then the game is no different than it was yesterday, buy low, sell high.
It's just getting harder to buy low these days, ie there is not much to hand reg anymore and the auctions are getting more competitive.
Yes, but the problem with "your dogs" is that there is 20 other domains for sale in each of your industries that are better quality than "your dogs".
So no one is going to try and buy them before they have tried to cut a deal with the other 20 guys first.
The next thing I think you are over looking is that most industries don't have a growing number of participants, ie the nature of capitalism promotes consolidation over time. Less buyers means less prospects to sell to, and potentially no sale.
So while you are thinking in 5 years time there will be "growing" demand for your low quality domains the reality is there will probably be reducing demand as these bigger more consolidated enterprises don't waste their time on the marginal stuff.
And for the record I sit the camp that think that the internet and technology over the next 10 years is probably going to reduce the number of market participants to less than 20% of today. Ie there will be 80% less car dealers, 80% less transport companies, 80% less financial advisors, 80% stock brokers, 80% less independent retail shops selling mainstream products etc.
And as spacey mentioned there are LOADS of high quality domains that have yet to even be developed, so why would these companies, that have better domains in their portfolio that they haven't even developed yet, want yours?
I just did a quick search of 4 terms of potentially valuable domains, cars, trucks, insurance and credit cards. Of course they were all owned:
carsforsale.com.au
usedcars.com.au
cars.com.au
trucksforsale.com.au
monstertrucks.com.au
trucks.com.au
usedtrucks.com.au
travelinsurance.com.au
carinsurance.com.au
healthinsurance.com.au
privatehealthinsurance.com.au
homeinsurance.com.au
insurance.com.au
carinsurancequotes.com.au
creditcards.com.au
balancetransfercreditcards.com.au
comparecreditcards.com.au
creditcardsaustralia.com.au
bestcreditcards.com.au
lowinterestcreditcards.com.au
These are some of the BEST domains in the country, yet 50% of them aren't even developed yet!
So the day some au prefix/suffix domain is the only undeveloped real estate left is decades off, and will probably never come...
Data Glasses
Top Contributor
.......pissing into the wind ?
findtim
Top Contributor
you're slipping spacey, you missed:
"throwing chocolate into a fan"
i think this conversation is done and dusted, i think its unanimous and we will all watch them drop in 2 years time.
as for a developer to help you? if you owned chocolate.com.au i would be onto you like flies on shit, but chocolateAU.com.au is soooooo lame and hard to do i'd charge you $10K to dev the site and then ongoing SEO, the site will be fantastic but there is no way i'd spend time on your vision for the chocolateAU site. imho.
koomel, spend some time reviewing threads and get a new plan, PM me your skill base and i'll give you a plan, there are STILL so many out there, get back to what you KNOW and before these domains drop you will have made far more money.
tim
Honan
Top Contributor
Are you just taking the piss out of us?
No, I cannot be bothered doing a whois . Too hot here.
Chris.C
Top Contributor
Looks that way.
Koomel is now officially one 1 of 2 people to ever to make it onto my DNTrade ignore list...
Shags was the other, when he first joined, but I have since removed him because he came around eventually.
I tried my best to offer some helpful advice (maybe it could have been delivered better) but either way I can't afford to be frustrated and distracted by these sorts of discussions anymore and the only way to prevent it is to ignore it all together.
Data Glasses
Top Contributor
lessons are sometimes learned at renewal time ....
