Who Said Hyphens Are Worth Nothing

[snoopy]

At the end of the day its a bit like plant and machinery a business buys to generate an income and then sell or dispose of that plant after it has had its day. Look at what income that plant or equipment has generated to the business. This is part and parcel of any business generating income from a piece of equipment.

So, if that domain has earnt that business hundreds of thousands over its life is it not a good name because in some domainers eyes it doesnt fit there domain specific mentality approach.

Sorry but Some of the domainers commenting here seem to have the shutters up when it comes to what makes a good domain, forget your metrics, forget your hyphen view, forget your exacts and broad term search views.

The problem with most analogies is that there is another analogy which says exact opposite, rendering the whole thing a bit useless.

How about comparing to a car, the car needs 95 octane fuel to run properly, but you can get away with 91 except that is breaks down once every month and won't start until the next day, so 3% of your productivity is lost. But think of all the productivity you have gained from the car, surely the fact that it is on 91 petrol can't be that bad? Say you close several 6 figure business deals by using that petrol, was it really a mistake?

I think it is a about spending more or choosing a different term and avoiding problems rather than looking at how you did with a non ideal business asset.

 

[johno69]

Many will argue if there is a hyphenated domain on page one making "Hundreds of thousands" it's not there due to the domain. But rather because of probably a "hundred thousand" other reasons.

People seem to value domains too much on what they think could be done with it. Some people can monetise a lot better than others.

I've made more money from shitty domains i've since let drop, than anything i've paid good money for. But thats due to all the other factors.

 

[helloworld]

I've seen hyphenated domains sell for 4 figure sums on flippa.

I personally think brand domains always need to be non-hyphenated and long tail domains are almost as valuable as their non hyphenated cousin if ranked correctly.

A friend recetly bought a hyphenated domain based on brand which I face palmed to. Useless longterm as their is too much risk in losing some traffic. Of course, it depends on how strong the brand becomes. People aren't entirely stupid

 

[silouette]

Typical

Typical Snoopy response, doesnt make much sense.

 

[Lucas]

Snoopy to some extent I agree with what you are saying, if you had a hyphenated domain you may loose a small amount of business to the same domain without a hyphen although in my opinion I tend to agree with DavidL that it would be a negligible amount.

From a purely domaining point of view of course the exact match domain without a hyphen or hyphens is best, there is no denying that. I think though the point is not everyone can own a category killer exact match domain without a hyphen and for many of us the next best thing is the only option because either the exact match non-hyphenated domain is not for sale regardless of price or if it is for sale it is not within budget. So the question then becomes what is better - a hyphenated domain or a domain with other words in it? What would loose less business?

Lets say John had a business selling electronic sensors, the domain electronicsensors.com.au was not available or the owner wanted too much for the domain or John just could not afford what was being asked for the domain. So John now has to choose between electronic-sensors.com.au and johnselectronicsensors.com.au or *someword*electronicsensors.com.au. In my opinion John would still be better off going with electronic-sensors.com.au. I think the small disadvantage of the hyphen is also present with an extra word in the domain without the hyphens. In other words johnselectronicsensors.com.au will also probably loose a small amount of business to electronicsensors.com.au in the case where people forget the domain name. The point I am trying to make is that unless you have electronicsensors.com.au you are at a slight disadvantage, hence the inherent value of exact match non-hyphenated domains, no matter whether you choose electronic-sensors.com.au or someotherdomain.com.au. I don't think adding an extra word is in any way a more logical solution.

There are more and more US businesses running websites on hyphenated domains and I do think they are becoming more accepted and it will only be a matter of time before they become more accepted here too.

Snoopy what bugs me about you argument is that you sort of give the impression that unless you have the non-hyphenated 'best' domain it is just not worth it and that you may as well just give up and find another business idea. Whilst you obviously know your stuff and have, from what I can gather, made alot more money from domaining than many if not most on this forum and respect where respect is due I do think your argument is not helpful for two reasons. One, many people do make good money on hyphenated domains as developers. If you can make $100,000 on some-domain.com.au that is $97,000 more than nothing even if you do loose 3% of sales (which I think is much more than you would actually loose). Two, I think it is in all of our interests to lift the .au domain industry as a whole. Telling everyone that their domains are worthless 'crap' unless they are category killer non-hyphenated domains is not really helping the au namespace at all. New comers are discouraged and go away thinking they have missed the boat, it is too late, there is no hope, their business will fail etc. Now I am not suggesting you lie to people and say yeah some-domain.com.au is just as good as somedomain.com.au I just think putting a slightly more positive spin on things would not hurt. After all the more the value of some-domain.com.au goes up the more the value of somedomain.com.au goes up in turn. Its like real estate I guess, the more the outer suburbs rise in price the more the inner suburbs rise as a result. Having such an elitist view on domains is fine for the 1% of people that own the best of the best but for the rest of us the argument is not really productive. Again, no one denies the fact that non-hyphenated domain are the preferred choice but as we all know they are not always an option. Trying to be constructive, and encouraging new comers, would probably benefit the au domain space much more than simply dismissing everything but the best of the best as 'crap'.

 

[snoopy]

Lets say John had a business selling electronic sensors, the domain electronicsensors.com.au was not available or the owner wanted too much for the domain or John just could not afford what was being asked for the domain. So John now has to choose between electronic-sensors.com.au and johnselectronicsensors.com.au or *someword*electronicsensors.com.au. In my opinion John would still be better off going with electronic-sensors.com.au.

I think John has lots of choices,

electronicsensor.com.au
sensors.com.au
electronicsensors.com (equally bad choice)
electronicsensors.net.au (equally bad choice)
sensors.com (bad choice)
lightsensors.com.au
tempreturesensors.com.au
transducers.com.au

Could probably name 100 if need be.

Snoopy what bugs me about you argument is that you sort of give the impression that unless you have the non-hyphenated 'best' domain it is just not worth it and that you may as well just give up and find another business idea.

Just choose a different term, even in small niches there is typically a lot of different choices without need for hyphens.

If you can make $100,000 on some-domain.com.au that is $97,000 more than nothing even if you do loose 3% of sales (which I think is much more than you would actually loose).

The problem is that the alternative being suggested to a hyphen is to "do nothing". You are doing the same thing you accuse me of. You like to think I'm saying "There is one domain and nothing else", you are saying "Choose the hyphen or nothing else".

Say you find keyword in the same area and make $150,000?

Two, I think it is in all of our interests to lift the .au domain industry as a whole. Telling everyone that their domains are worthless 'crap' unless they are category killer non-hyphenated domains is not really helping the au namespace at all. New comers are discouraged and go away thinking they have missed the boat, it is too late, there is no hope, their business will fail etc.

There is no value in leading people down the path with unrealistic valuations.

Now I am not suggesting you lie to people and say yeah some-domain.com.au is just as good as somedomain.com.au I just think putting a slightly more positive spin on things would not hurt.

And there is no value in putting unrealistic "spin" on things. The best thing a domainer can be told is the truth, the worst thing is not to do that because the person will waste a lot more money if they think they are on the right track when they aren't.

After all the more the value of some-domain.com.au goes up the more the value of somedomain.com.au goes up in turn. Its like real estate I guess, the more the outer suburbs rise in price the more the inner suburbs rise as a result.

The difference is that unlike land there is no shortage of domains, so things tend to be either quite good or worthless.

 

[Rhythm]

Snoopy, perhaps you missed my question:

What would you consider to be a significant % of lost sales?

 

[Lucas]

I think John has lots of choices,

electronicsensor.com.au
sensors.com.au
electronicsensors.com (equally bad choice)
electronicsensors.net.au (equally bad choice)
sensors.com (bad choice)
lightsensors.com.au
tempreturesensors.com.au
transducers.com.au

Could probably name 100 if need be.

I thought the whole point of this discussion was whether or not hyphenated domains have some value in comparison to their non-hypenated version. That aside and assuming John is selling electronic sensors I think the only options you put forward that are worth considering are:

electronicsensor.com.au
electronicsensors.net.au

I agree that both of the above domains are definitely worth considering yet each brings a whole new debate to the discussion. Plural vs Singular and .net.au vs hyphenated .com.au.

I think if electronicsensors.com.au is not available or affordable then electronicsensors.com is definitely not going to be available or affordable, as for sensors.com that suggestion is just unrealistic in this situation.

As for the rest of the suggestions they only reflect part of what John is selling:

lightsensors.com.au
temperaturesensors.com.au
transducers.com.au

Light sensors would be good if you were selling only light sensors but what about the other types of sensors that you sell. If people are looking for a magentic sensor and they see your domain name is lightsensors.com.au they might, understandably, not click on your website which in my opinion would cause greater loss.

There is no value in leading people down the path with unrealistic valuations.

And there is no value in putting unrealistic "spin" on things. The best thing a domainer can be told is the truth, the worst thing is not to do that because the person will waste a lot more money if they think they are on the right track when they aren't.

I agree, but I was not suggesting leading people down the path to unrealistic valuations or not telling them the truth. I'm just suggesting informing people, honestly, that hyphenated domains are not as good, they are not worth anywhere near as much, but don't just write them off as crap and totally worthless in one fell swoop.

The difference is that unlike land there is no shortage of domains, so things tend to be either quite good or worthless.

I disagree with that. There is not an endless supply of exact match domains available (otherwise domaining would not be an industry), they are finite especially when you look at each industry individually. Look at shoes.com.au, that seems pretty limited to me. Sure, you could get diddleedeeshoes.com.au but you could also buy a block of land in the middle of the outback.

 

[snoopy]

Snoopy, perhaps you missed my question:

What would you consider to be a significant % of lost sales?

Have answered the same question before,

If think it was even a few % that is significant enough to warrant not using the name, even less than 1%. The actual saving from not going with a better name is likely be be far lower than the sales lost. Say the company does it to "save" $2000, it wouldn't take that many lost sales to make buying the hyphen a bad deal.

 

[Rhythm]

Hmmm, IMO < 1% is blegh. I guess in the end - as I think DavidL mentioned - it all comes down to ROI which in turn makes it all dependent on the actual prices of the .com.au or -.com.au (and .net.au), so each domain name acquisition circumstance is unique where there is a choice available between the two (where both are available at the same time at different prices.

You'd get more 'lost' sales sticking the domain name on a bumper sticker on the back of a vehicle in Sydney.


Side note: Anyone here have data on this? eg You have a hyphen domain and decided/chose to acquire the non-hyphen... Without having advertised the new domain - What was the % jump in traffic/sales? (If any)

 

[Rhythm]

Also: to lose even 1% of sales transactions the hyphenated site has to be losing 10% of traffic to the non-hyphen, and of that the conversion rate has to be 10%...

YMMV, but if I had a functional hyphen site, and I wanted to buy the 'better' domain for the supposed traffic that I'm being told I'm missing - I'd want to see the traffic stats first to see if it's worth whatever the asking price is. Money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Shane]

Side note: Anyone here have data on this? eg You have a hyphen domain and decided/chose to acquire the non-hyphen... Without having advertised the new domain - What was the % jump in traffic/sales? (If any)

I went through this exact scenario, and both traffic and leads certainly jumped considerably after the switch.

However the site was still experiencing strong growth at that stage, so it's hard to say how much could be attributed to losing the hyphen.

I can say that after switching to the non-hyphen domain I certainly had a lot more confidence in the site which resulted in me spending more time on it, and today it is amongst my best earners with a couple of position 1 rankings.

I was very happy to secure the non-hyphen, however I probably wouldn't have bid so high for the domain if I hadn't already been running the hyphenated version which gave me an idea of the earning potential of the phrase.

I don't bother with hyphenated domains now days, but I still wouldn't discount them entirely, especially for new domainers.

 

[DavidL]

... especially for new domainers.

This is what it boils down to. It's all very well for snoopy to denigrate hyphen domains and net.au domains but he can afford to do that because he bought all his domains 10 years ago when there was bugger all competition.

But for the rest of us, we can't go and hand register category killer com.au's or, in most cases, afford to buy them because the market has grown so strongly and they are too expensive.

So the option is to look at the second tier of domains - less then premium names, hyphen domains and net.au domains.

BUT (and a big BUT!), this doesn't mean they have any less investment potential. In 10 years, today's hyphen domains may fetch what today's non-hyphen domains fetch and could well deliver the same sort of % ROI that hand registered premium com.au's have delivered in the last 10 years.

For example, a few years ago the names that Chris highlighted:

cheap-travel-insurance.com.au - $4081
currency-trading.com.au - $3000
house-insurance.com.au -$2725

were probably available to hand-register and yet now look what the market values them at.

The other thing is the people who are talking down hyphen domains and net.au domains have never even developed and SEO'd a domain. So they don't understand that part of the inherent value.

 

[acheeva]

The other thing is the people who are talking down hyphen domains and net.au domains have never even developed and SEO'd a domain. So they don't understand that part of the inherent value.

Most domain purchases are speculative, whether for end use or monetization

Like any market; perception and sentiment are today's drivers

However those perceptions do need to be validated by actual experiences in order to maintain optimism

It is a shame there is not a Dow Jones equivalent for domains; because the share market exodus would test system volumes to the max.

 

[DavidL]

It is a shame there is not a Dow Jones equivalent for domains; because the share market exodus would test system volumes to the max.

www.idnx.com is pretty good and apparently Booomberg and Reuters are now reporting on it too:

http://www.thedomains.com/2012/04/2...edos-idnx-to-their-covered-financial-markets/

 

[soj]

www.idnx.com is pretty good and apparently Booomberg and Reuters are now reporting on it too:

http://www.thedomains.com/2012/04/2...edos-idnx-to-their-covered-financial-markets/

That's a great link - thanks David.

 

[silouette]

hypen

Ok my view:

Go to the Google australia site, type into search bush furniture, now where does the hypenated domain sit? yep above the non hyphen. So my argument is that a hyphen name with a little seo can do better than the non-hypen name. (whoops used a hypen)

Yep its a simple wordpress site and has been on first page google for approx 18 months. Say no More and yep that business is making good income which can be attributed to that website being on first page. This is a real life situation.

So to all the domainers sitting on the fence. Do not listen to some of the negative comments, go and register the hypen domain if you want to without any guilt. Over analysis = paralysis

 

[Rhythm]

So umm, as per above post, I just googled "bush furniture" on google.com and www.bush-furniture-online.com ranked second from my PC. Might have something to do with the latest Google update?

 

[snoopy]

Hmmm, IMO < 1% is blegh. I guess in the end - as I think DavidL mentioned - it all comes down to ROI which in turn makes it all dependent on the actual prices of the .com.au or -.com.au (and .net.au), so each domain name acquisition circumstance is unique where there is a choice available between the two (where both are available at the same time at different prices.

You'd get more 'lost' sales sticking the domain name on a bumper sticker on the back of a vehicle in Sydney.


Side note: Anyone here have data on this? eg You have a hyphen domain and decided/chose to acquire the non-hyphen... Without having advertised the new domain - What was the % jump in traffic/sales? (If any)

If the typical aftermarket price is in the low to mid $000's then that kind of expenditure is soon worth it versus say the hyphen name that is reg fee. For the average home business generating say $100,000 in sales a year then we are talking $3000 in lost sales a year, so the domain in that scenario would pay for itself in a few months.

 

[snoopy]

Also: to lose even 1% of sales transactions the hyphenated site has to be losing 10% of traffic to the non-hyphen, and of that the conversion rate has to be 10%...

Not sure what you are talking about here, to lose 1% of sales they likely need to lose 1% of traffic.

YMMV, but if I had a functional hyphen site, and I wanted to buy the 'better' domain for the supposed traffic that I'm being told I'm missing - I'd want to see the traffic stats first to see if it's worth whatever the asking price is. Money could be better spent elsewhere.

Regarding "seeing traffic stats" that is something that is going to effect you after your site is established, so by the time you are sending whatever % to someone else the price is going to be different compared to if you had bought it straight away. Think flicker.com but on a much smaller scale.

When someone develops a site around a domain I own, the price goes up for two reasons, firstly the name is now a revenue generator for me, and secondly they'll be far more motivated to buy, it isn't like they have a choice of 5 alternative names after the fact, they do have a choice before the business starts though.

Had one guy a while ago (this wasn't a hyphen situation but quite similar in terms of choosing a domain that many would confuse with mine) he tried to buy the name several years ago. When he first tried the business was somewhat small, so the earnings were minimal. Over time the parking earnings really grew despite the overall decline in the parking market. Every year or so he'd make a better offer, and every year the earnings were higher so the price was higher. His first offer was $200 and I wanted $2,000. I think the asking price then went to $6500 & $10,000 in subsequent years. Three years after initially inquiring he finally bought it but the price was $20,000. That is the price of buying the domain after the business is successful, you are creating value for someone else and then you have to buy it back when the problem becomes too obvious to ignore any longer.