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Question about trademarks

James

Top Contributor
Was just wondering about this today,

Say you purchase a domain which has a trademark for a specific term for 10 years and then this term is now expired for around a year on IP Australia.
The term is also a "generic" sounding keyword, and the business is not running any more which acquired this original trademark.

What are the legal aspects behind this??

Thanks.
 

Data Glasses

Top Contributor
i think there are terms regarding the active use of a trademark , after a certain period it could be void and not hold any problems for you, i would be asking that question at ip australia for a solid response
 

snoopinc

Regular Member
Also i have another similar question regarding TM's in Australia's domain space. Say you register your .com.au in 2008 and you've been running a business off it. Suddenly in 2010, someone files a TM on your domain's name. Do you get the keep the domain and continue running business as normal or does the opposition have rights to take the domain off you?
 

James

Top Contributor
I think if you prove that you had the domain up and running in 2008 before the trademark was launched then you will still have fair use of the domain, well this is the way it works overseas I am pretty sure.
 

Lorenzo

Top Contributor
there is still the potential the TM is used overseas by someone else...did u check that?
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
When it comes to TM's all you should worry about is whether that TM is being infringed upon or not.

In terms of auDA policy, if microsoft.com.au were available, I would have as much right to register it as Bill.

The exceptions are TMs (or any auDA-defined 'brand name') that are monetised or any domains that are deemed 'misspellings'. You should take some care in this area.

There is far too much worry about TMs it seems to me - just don't 'trade-off' on the reputation of any brand name (whether TM'ed or not) and you should be right.
 

Simon Johnson

Top Contributor
In terms of auDA policy, if microsoft.com.au were available, I would have as much right to register it as Bill.

Registering the domain is one thing, but the law is another.

I'm not a lawyer, but in terms of trademark law (using the above example), you would have no chance of keeping it.

Seriously guys, if its a trademark keyword, dont bother, its not worth your time.
 

Lorenzo

Top Contributor
In terms of auDA policy, if microsoft.com.au were available, I would have as much right to register it as Bill.
.


Sure you can register it. But watch it being deleted by auDA like "yaho.com.au" will be tomorrow.
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
Sure you can register it. But watch it being deleted by auDA like "yaho.com.au" will be tomorrow.

No they wouldn't - it doesn't breach any policy unlike yaho.com.au

Registering the domain is one thing, but the law is another.

I'm not a lawyer, but in terms of trademark law (using the above example), you would have no chance of keeping it.

Seriously guys, if its a trademark keyword, dont bother, its not worth your time.

Remember, Simon, DomainerIncome.com contains a TMs!

When it comes to TM's all you should worry about is whether that TM is being infringed upon or not....

There is far too much worry about TMs it seems to me - just don't 'trade-off' on the reputation of any brand name (whether TM'ed or not) and you should be right.
 

James

Top Contributor
Only reason I asked this was because this specific day on DROP their were two domains in the daily twitter feed which were trademarked, one was current the other was a govt trademark but expired...I was going to be bid but decided not too =)
 

Simon Johnson

Top Contributor
Remember, Simon, DomainerIncome.com contains a TMs!

David: That is a completely different issue and off the topic. But since you brought it up :) one of the great features of DomainerIncome is that we check .au domains for keywords that are trademarked. The fact is, nobody else in the industry does this currently. We do this to help professional domain investors make an informed decision before they buy a domain.

The fact is, if your register a TM within the class/category then you run a variety of risks. These range from breaching auDA policy to having the TM owner taking action.

Whether someone disagrees with TM law or auDA policy is irrelevant - that's environment we operate in.

Back to the topic, I believe James made the right decision not to bid on a TM domain. I just wish more people made that decision.
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
The fact is, if your register a TM within the class/category then you run a variety of risks. These range from breaching auDA policy to having the TM owner taking action.

Of course but investment by it's very nature is a risk. Registering abvsdgh.com.au is a risk (auDA might demand to know what the close & substantial connection is for example)

There is nothing wrong with registering domains that contain TMs if you do not 'trade off' that TM's reputation!

We have and should fight for the right to register domains like MicrosoftSucks.com.au or UsedHoldensForSale.com.au

Back to the topic, I believe James made the right decision not to bid on a TM domain. I just wish more people made that decision.

I really don't agree. The TM was 11 years old, company had disappeared and TM expired.

The law permits someone else to use that TM (or even re-register it in their own name), auDA policy permits it but you're saying James shouldn't have registered it?

Again there is too much fussing about TMs. Make decisions based on ethics, due diligence and fairness and you'll be OK 99.9% of the time.

For the remaining 0.1% of the time, the worst that can possibly happen is you lose the domain. Some may argue 'The TM owners will sue you' but frankly, that just doesn't happen.

For one thing they would need to spend tens of thousands of dollars taking you to court, falsely prove that you were deliberately infringing on their TM and make an account for losses incurred (how on earth can they do that?)

Saying that, Simon your TM check is a fantastic research tool and makes absolute sense to use it. So it plugs into the ATMOSS dabase?

All I'm trying to say is don't automatically rule out a domain if it happens to contain a TM.
 
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Simon Johnson

Top Contributor
There is nothing wrong with registering domains that contain TMs if you do not 'trade off' that TM's reputation!

We have and should fight for the right to register domains like MicrosoftSucks.com.au or UsedHoldensForSale.com.au

My understanding is that it's not as "clear cut" as that; this is one discussion that's best left to the lawyers.
 

James

Top Contributor
I disagree, they can still sue you if you have a domain like "FacebookFlowers.com.au" and you sell flowers online..

I know personally I have been sued by a big company for a render to a trademark for a .com domain it was not a exact match trademark yet their lawyers claimed I was rendering on the trademark. In the end we settled the case for a money sum which I was happy with.

But really if the company is big or if its government and they want to sue you they will work out a way to sue you, hence the face I steer right clear of trademark domains which have any thing to do with big business and government as they have money to burn...
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
I know personally I have been sued by a big company for a render to a trademark for a .com domain it was not a exact match trademark yet their lawyers claimed I was rendering on the trademark. In the end we settled the case for a money sum which I was happy with.

If you don't go to court, you are not being sued (by definition).

How much did you have to pay them?
 

DavidL

Top Contributor
no we settled as they paid me out...

I guess that's kind of my point. The absolute worst case scenario of registering a domain name that could conceivably contain a trademark is that you lose the domain.

Remember as well many lawyers are bullies (or just light on work) and will send scary letters to try and threaten people out of their domains.

If you honestly believe that you haven't infringed, just ignore them. They will not take you to court despite their threats. (think about it - why would they spend $XXK+ taking you to court when they could launch an auDRP for $2,500?)

I repeat - just do the right thing and you have nothing to worry about.
 

shags38

Top Contributor
Just throwing in 2 bobs worth - I am not an Internet Lawyer (we do have one in here :) ) but my view is this - absolutely nothing wrong with registering a domain with TM words in it - once you make the domain a "live" website then the "potential" issues start. As a domain sitting on the shelf it does not and cannot infringe on TM or IP rights for a million reasons not the least of which is it is not in the public view - nobody can find it - type in a non hosted (non parked) domain name and you get zilch because it is not a url (terminology, parked = live = has a url). I agree with David - there is far too much concern about TMs - I throw the letters I get in the bin these days - the first one I got from SEARS (USA) scared the living daylights out of me, I was frantic with concern, couldn't sleep .......... I deleted / cancelled the domains (regretably as it now turns out) and then read a heap about such things - so as a backyard internet lawyer I ignore their weak limp protests - when I see a bailiff walking up the drive then I may reconsider my position. It rests with the owner of the TM to prove infringement, if there is no infringement then how can they prove "intent" ..... impossible, and Auda cannot prove it either and should have no right to refuse registration based on their opinion that it would infringe on a TM or based simply on the fact that the name or part thereof includes a TM or part thereof - they do not have the legal right to do so and it is not in their charter to protect a TM registrant, that is up to the courts - even ICANN is a lame duck in such disputes and most cases end up either with the registrant giving up because it wasn't such a big deal to them in any case, the TM owner doing the same, an out of court settlement or in a court of law - at the end of the day the law prevails, not some "authority / association / old school tie club".

I have a number of domains that have words like "Blu-ray" Trade Marked but by a group of manufacturers not a single manufacturer and they don't mind the name being used because it further generates exposure for the technology and generates sales for the manufacturer members ...... "Panasonic Blu-ray" .... now that is a different story. I have had a number of people comment adversely about my domains that use Blu-ray, however they have a fixation that any TM name is taboo, which is not the case. I, like many others, have a number of names with "iPhone, iPad, Apple" , names TM'd ...... does anyone believe that Steve Jobs cares about people using those names in domain names ........ yes he does care ........ he loves it because it is affirmation of his products and gives him exposure that cannot be bought. Try stating or giving the impression you are actually Apple and he might lose his smile. The same goes for many, many other commercial products that are Trade Marked and also are a part of common "speak" ....... the manufacturers love it, well the samrt ones anyway. Most of the letters I get (not bunches but a few from time to time) are from smaller niche product owners or in the case of Sears a triggered correspondence from an automated alert as a matter of procedure rather than with any real intention to carry out their threat.
I challenged a very large global organization to prove the inferred "intent" of my registration of a name indicated in their correspondence and in the same correspondence demanded an aplopolgy for the inferrence that I would consider doing such a thing. Their reply fell a comma short of an official apology but it read as one and they went away. Puff and wind.

I am selling off a bunch of my 3D domains as some of you know - I have actually tidied up the site a bit so will get you guys to have another look for me if you don't mind - I have no doubt whatsoever, none at all that many that see names like BlurayBurners3D or iPhone3DApps will immediately turn away because they will see TM issues (even before they look at the name and say wtf?) ...... as domainers who "invent" and register names we have to put up with such obstacles unfortunately.

So my 2 bobs worth ended up about fifty quid :)

check out www.Names3D.com when you get a moment.

cheers,
Mike
 

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