auDA and .melbourne domain space

[George]

If there is to be such strict controls of who buys these, how is anyone going to satisfy, ARI, AUDA and City Of Melbourne and still make a $$ out of it if the only sensible use of the extension is a directory?

* auDA have nothing to do with the .melbourne and .sydney TLDs.
* VIC State Government is the Registry Operator for .melbourne
* NSW State Government is the Registry Operator for .sydney
* ARI is the Registry Service Provider for both .melbourne and .sydney

OK - myer.melbourne I get - useless; but I get it,

I don't quite follow the definition of 'useless', doesn't it depend on how something is used? It is more a matter of choice for the Registrant, and at the end of the day a domain merely resolves an IP address.

I can say that we are collecting data, and there has been strong demand for people wanting to pre-register their domain names. We are not currently taking pre-registrations, but it doesn't stop people asking.

There is a formal process that ICANN mandates for the release of a TLD. It involves Sunrise, Landrush, Claims, and General Release phases. Each TLD can tweak these requirements, but there is a minimum obligation for Registry Operators to follow.

But plumbers.melbourne - if it was sold to say the major plumbing business in Melbourne and not a developer/yellowpages/local-directories looking to make a directory then there would be howls of anti competitive practice and worse.

Repeat that in every service industry in Melbourne. builders,coffee,restaurants.....

I suggest doing a whois on the com.au domains you listed to identify how many are owned by directory service businesses and how many are owned by business. Interestingly a few of them don't resolve to a website, and have just email services active. Perhaps these are acquisition targets, I consider these domain a waist of online realestate when they don't resolve a site. I prefer a monetised parked page of links over nothing!

Domains are available of a "first come, first serve" basis providing you pass basic eligibility requirements. There is no policy in .au preventing a coffee shop registering coffee.com.au, and similarly preventing 'XYZ Plumbers' holding plumbers.com.au or plumbers.melbourne. Even Trademarks are not enough to protect a domain...

2.3 There is no hierarchy of rights in the DNS. For example, a registered trade mark does not confer any better entitlement to a domain name than a registered company or business name. Domain name licences are allocated on a ‘first come, first served’ basis. Provided the relevant eligibility and allocation rules are satisfied, the first registrant whose application for a particular domain name is submitted to the registry will be permitted to license it.

http://auda.org.au/policies/current-policies/2012-04/

Can someone please explain who is going to jump all these barriers to buy these things and then make a quid out of them.

Most people do not make money from domain names. Actually domain investment and monetisation is estimated to make up less than 8% of the .au namespace.

People make money from their businesses, and domain names simply supports their activity. Domain names are used for marketing and promoting businesses online, or to deliver products and services online. (This is a commercial perspective - obviously, before the purists crucify me, domains can be used for a variety technical and non-commercial activities too.

I am not sure if I answered all your questions Offtap, but hopefully it helped clear some confusion.

Bests...

 

[Offtap]

Thanks George - yes you've cleared it up.

I was under the assumption that as these were basically administered by the state governments, that some kind of fairplay rules would be in place.

I assumed the government would have to justify selling each domain based on some sort of process other than first come first served. I hadn't realised it was a free for all.

It kind of makes the governments involvement puzzling.

My example - when Dominoes Pizza buys restaurants.melbourne and runs its pizza business from it, or Kmart buys fashion.melbourne how will the govt. defend itself against the obvious claims from small and large operators that they have helped put them out of business. The implications of corruption and bias whether based in fact or not are huge.

I don't for one minute understand why Govt is involved, and that is why I was confused, as I assumed very strict controls would be placed on who and how these things could be bought, and further extending to what could be run on them.

Could I run a bookmaking site on afl.melbourne or sport.melbourne, or could the Spearmint Rhino buy events.melbourne?

I strongly doubt the free for all concept will become the status quo.

 

[George]

Offtap, the policy is still being formulated and finalised. Both state governments have invested in their capital city TLDs to the benefit of the respective residents of each state.

I think it is great that both the VIC and NSW State governments are open and willing to 'take a crack' to engage online. Relatively there are but a small number of cities around the world that embraced this opportunity, and I am happy to live in a city that is progressive enough to support my industry.

The more people that get involved, and the more awareness generated within the general public, then the better for everyone engaged by the domain name industry in Australia. The average Joe is still blissfully unaware about the significance of domain names. I look forward to the day I answer the dreaded BBQ/Party question about my livelihood, and I am received by awareness and understanding - instead of the deadpan looks I currently get (most times).

Offtap, we are navigating some of the questions you raised. The challenge is that everyone brings a valid and interesting argument to the table. I personally am of the 'keep it simple' and 'free market system' persuasion, and believe the market will sort itself out. There is also court system in place to deal with the grey areas. This is not to say my way is the right way, just more a reflection of my ideology.

Over the next few months the final policy will be determined, along with the release and launch processes. I will be sure to send information to DNTrade members as and when available.

 

[findtim]

i'm not going to comment on the recent thread content but just thank George for being open in his views and knowledge, its been rare to see on DNT.

yes I could have just "liked" the posts but I felt that would have been misleading as there are some things I don't like.

time will tell.

tim

 

[johno69]

The problem with Business Names, is that you can register the identical name in different states. If I owned XYZ Plumbing in Victoria, and the QLD variant got the jump on me with the com.au - I would likely consider the option to get xyzplumbing.melbourne

Business names are now national and handled by ASIC. Have been for a while I'm pretty sure.

 

[findtim]

Business names are now national and handled by ASIC. Have been for a while I'm pretty sure.

I think about 2 years now, but there are still valid business names from the old system which are duplicates of each other.

-------------

by the way, I would be checking right now if your business names are still registered, I had 3 "overdue" letters this week for business names, ASIC have been SLACK but are now getting momentum in chasing business name rego.

I rang then early this year as I didn't get a renewal and they said " ohh don't worry we are still doing the change "

I rang this week about the 3 I just got and they said " ohh don't worry ASIC isn't removing business name registrations at the moment because of the change"

SO I would say the ball is in your court as ASIC seem stuffed.

just FYI

-------------------
story:

I had a business name for 10 years in QLD, then moved to VIC, by law I had to move the name but I couldn't as in VIC it conflicted with another, name expired for 1 week in QLD, so I went to renew it in QLD using my parents address and they wouldn't let me as it conflicted with another name that was registered 5 years AFTER I registered mine !!!!

here is a good TIP: if you ring a government dept and don't get the answer you want, hang up and ring back, get a different person you may just get a different answer.

which is what happened, I said if I am in conflict with them how then should they have been allowed to register their name ??? , thankfully I was talking to a guy that had a brain and I was able to reregister the business name.

tim

 

[snoopy]

Last time I checked, people live in Croydon. People also buy and sell realestate in Croydon. I have even heard that people buy and live in Frankston. Shock horror! Are these suburbs failures? Are they bad places to invest in?

You claimed it is only a few more keystrokes than .com.au. The comparison with realestate is people who claim xyz suburbs is only certain number of km's further than somewhere else.

.com.au is a long tld, if being a few keystrokes more than .com.au is fine then I question at what point do you consider a tld that is too long?

Is there any other tld as a long as .melbourne? I can't think of one. Even .museum is 3 characters less.

So, on that note - as posted in my first post... What constitutes success of a new TLD? How many Domains Under Management (DUMs) deem a new TLD successful?

For ausregistry, "success" will simply mean getting someone signed up. I'm assuming .melbourne isn't going to lose money for Ausregistry if 5 domains are sold. It is the local council and state government that is throwing their money away.

I remember you had the same opinion of com.au. Actually you probably still do..., and from reading past posts it would be I think it would be fair to make the assumption that you consider all the com.au domainers junk merchants.

Can you point out where I have said this? I've said many times .com.au is not a good place to speculate in, but it is the 100% quality in terms of businesses using it, it is dominant.

How will Registries, and Registrars make money from something that has no utility or commercial support?

If someone can prove to me that you can make money in a sustainable business by introducing a product nobody wants to buy, please PM me. I will invest in that business any day of the week.

Plenty of people will buy new tlds just like all the new and rebranded tlds than proceeded them, .ws, .us, .biz, .tv, new.net, .mobi, .co.

Some people have seen the lessons of the past and gotten on the right side of the fences, e.g. big domainers, large registrars........ausregistry. They are making money from selling to domainers and others like the Melbourne City Council. They know the other side of the fence is a fools game.

 

[findtim]

so now I will comment.

sunrise etccc. what criteria? so if my "melbournedentist.com.au" wants "dentist.melbourne" can he get it? or does his competitor "dentistmelbourne.com.au" have priority ?

what about the .net.au owners?

( note: I am not talking about directory sites like "dentists" )

what is the priority process?

or is a free for all, tender system ?

tim

 

[George]

Is there any other tld as a long as .melbourne? I can't think of one. Even .museum is 3 characters less.

Granted, it is at the larger end of new TLDs, but there are still a number longer still.

https://gtldresult.icann.org/application-result/applicationstatus

For ausregistry, "success" will simply mean getting someone signed up. I'm assuming .melbourne isn't going to lose money for Ausregistry if 5 domains are sold. It is the local council and state government that is throwing their money away.

The NSW and VIC State Government issued a Tender for the Registry Service Provider. It is a public document I am sure you can track down, but in short, your assumption is wrong.

Can you point out where I have said this? I've said many times .com.au is not a good place to speculate in, but it is the 100% quality in terms of businesses using it, it is dominant.

This discussion keeps jumping from domainer interests to general business value - hence the confusion. From a domainer (speculator) perspective, I recall conversations at a function or two where you openly questioned .au as an investment. So I think we agree with this recollection.

No argument about businesses using it..., and I agree you never questioned this viewpoint. Not with me at least.

For the record, my expectations about .melbourne success will be measured by businesses and resident adoption. I think that residents will take to the namespace, because at present the only option individuals have to register any .au 2LD is with the id.au option.

Some people have seen the lessons of the past and gotten on the right side of the fences, e.g. big domainers, large registrars........ausregistry. They are making money from selling to domainers and others like the Melbourne City Council. They know the other side of the fence is a fools game.

In my world, good business is about sustainability, so I still can't see how you can argue 'money grab', without taking into consideration utility and service delivery. Investing in a new TLD is not a cheap exercise, so unless you can drive value to consumers the money lost will be with the risk takers.

Anyhow, I think we now speculated enough. Time will tell, and I hope I look back in 5 years and claim victory on the success argument. I will cerianly be at the coal face working hard to make this a reality.

From a domainers perspective, I would hope you all feel the same way too. At the end of the day, if .melbourne and .sydney are successful then you all arguably have more items to stack on your shelves. The collective experience you all hold, should allow some of you to innovate and take new services to market.

Remember, Louis Pasteur..., and may the fortune be with you! (hmm, mixed metaphor? Just introduced the Star Wars movies to the kids over the weekend!)

 

[snoopy]

From a domainers perspective, I would hope you all feel the same way too. At the end of the day, if .melbourne and .sydney are successful then you all arguably have more items to stack on your shelves. The collective experience you all hold, should allow some of you to innovate and take new services to market.

Unfortunately some will be convinced just like all the others before it.

There is nothing "innovative" in people registering these. The end result is almost always a maxed out credit card and an angry wife.

 

[George]

so now I will comment.

sunrise etccc. what criteria? so if my "melbournedentist.com.au" wants "dentist.melbourne" can he get it? or does his competitor "dentistmelbourne.com.au" have priority ?

what about the .net.au owners?

( note: I am not talking about directory sites like "dentists" )

what is the priority process?

or is a free for all, tender system ?

tim

Sunrise, Landrush, and General Release all have specific meanings according to ICANN Policy.

With Sunrise, it relates to Trademark Holders that have filed an application in the Trade Mark Clearing House (TMCH)

You must have one mandatory Sunrise for TMCH, but you can elect additional Sunrise phases, eg: for com.au and net.au owners etc... The final policy for .melbourne and .sydney has not been determined yet. The final policy and launch plan will be communicated to the public, well ahead of any release.

what about the .net.au owners?

During a Sunrise Period, and or Landrush, names are not allocated. You make an applicatiopn and there is an objection or claims period. If there is more than one viable applicant, the industry standard is to resolve the contention by auction.

If there are no claims, and no contention, then the domain is allocated to the applicant at the end of the period and ahead of General Release. At General Release it become first come first serve, however each new TLD out there will have their own eligibility requirements - particularly community based TLDs.

Each phase may also incur administrative fees associated to the application.

If you are interested to find out more about new TLDs, I recommend going to the source: http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/

 

[James]

Matt Cutt's just shut down the new TLD's https://plus.google.com/+MattCutts/posts/4VaWg4TMM5F

Interesting that he quotes a .com.au article.

 

[snoopy]

Matt Cutt's just shut down the new TLD's https://plus.google.com/+MattCutts/posts/4VaWg4TMM5F

Interesting that he quotes a .com.au article.

Interesting, so I'm assuming by that they are going to ignore the keyword of extension for ranking purposes.

 

[James]

Interesting, so I'm assuming by that they are going to ignore the keyword of extension for ranking purposes.

Yeah I think their are plenty of miss conceptions in the market about .anything TLD's. I noticed some complaints already targeted at 1&1 in the UK after they claimed these new tlds will give you a search push, John Muller was also quick to shut them down for those comments.

 

[snoopy]

Yeah I think their are plenty of miss conceptions in the market about .anything TLD's. I noticed some complaints already targeted at 1&1 in the UK after they claimed these new tlds will give you a search push, John Muller was also quick to shut them down for those comments.

I'd say this is sharp marketing from salesmen, misconceptions definitely but I'd say that is on the part of customers, I'm sure the registries are fully aware. Probably the key point of the article is that it is written by the CEO of Ausregistry.

There is all sorts of self serving stuff in the article, quotes from other people that have been presented as experts plus the authors own equally dubious claims.

From a credibility point of view, new top-level domains will get more click-throughs from search results – even if they’re not ranked at the top.

Ultimately, the big question is: will car.insurance rank higher than carinsurance.com (for example)? All the evidence suggest the answer is yes, provided that the .insurance namespace builds value and perhaps verification into its space to ensure it is a signpost for good, trusted and authoritative content.

 

[George]

Matt Cutt's just shut down the new TLD's https://plus.google.com/+MattCutts/posts/4VaWg4TMM5F

Interesting that he quotes a .com.au article.

Interestingly, this was in response to Adrian Kinderis's blog article on Search. At the time Google had not stated a public position on the new TLD program.

Soon after though, when ICANN disclosed the new TLD Applicant list, it became apparent that Google applied for 101 new TLDs. At $185K per applications (non-refundable), and an auction process to determine contention - that is an interesting position to take on something that they 'shut down'.

http://searchenginewatch.com/article/2184179/Google-Pays-18.6-Million-Applying-for-101-New-gTLDs

 

[James]

Interestingly, this was in response to Adrian Kinderis's blog article on Search. At the time Google had not stated a public position on the new TLD program.

Soon after though, when ICANN disclosed the new TLD Applicant list, it became apparent that Google applied for 101 new TLDs. At $185K per applications (non-refundable), and an auction process to determine contention - that is an interesting position to take on something that they 'shut down'.

http://searchenginewatch.com/article/2184179/Google-Pays-18.6-Million-Applying-for-101-New-gTLDs

Yeah that is only 18 million to Google, they spend more on an office renovation. Probably a more defensive play rather than any thing.

That been said it is too early to call in regards to how these news TLD's will perform. My advice is wait until they launch and then comment on performance.

To say established .com insurance domains will easily be over taken by .insurance domain is very miss leading.

 

[James]

Met someone at a business event last night who is working with a client based in Sydney who are transferring their domain from an established domain > .anything domain.

Will be interesting to track progress on that one within the serps as it sounds like an established brand. It could also be risky at the same time.

 

[petermeadit]

Met someone at a business event last night who is working with a client based in Sydney who are transferring their domain from an established domain > .anything domain.

Will be interesting to track progress on that one within the serps as it sounds like an established brand. It could also be risky at the same time.

Please keep us informed, I would be interested to know. Have seen Google displaying those results without domain information, where it does not display the full url. Not sure where this is going, but it is a big change for any tech minded people to accept. Myself included.