Gonna be a big one at Domain8 on Monday...

[Occy]

1) Does anybody know exactly how the drop system works or the best method to snap a domain? Does anyone doubt that it is an extremely complex (more and more as you did deeper) problem to solve (combining connections, domains, scripts etc for maximum efficiency)?

Yes I do it took me about 4 hours to write a script and implement the API provided by Ausregistry to the Registrars. The advantage of being a registrar is that you have direct access to Ausregistry. Even with the new rules coming into play it does not benefit the general public they will still need to use a backordering service provided by a registrar. Snapping a domain is based on milliseconds. The easiest way to do this is to pound the registry with registration requests until eventually one is successful. The only way to make a truly even playing field is to say allow each registrar only one request per second.

We need to test how competitive we can be in real time and the only way to do that is to choose names that are going to be chased by D8 and DW.

All names which have been bid on in the auction are competitive. If you can win one you can win another. The only difference in your scripts would be the rate of the requests.

As for the issue of Policy. As I said, we registered the domain as part of our testing. I have no question that this complies 100% with policy.

However I'm sure auDA are well aware of what has happened and I urge anyone who feels 'badly done by' to lodge a complaint.

This is a very thin excuse and as Dotworx said now that testing is over are you going to release them to the market. Perhaps you should read the relevant policy. Look at 3.3 an the words " auDA may, at its own reasonable discretion". I think Netfleet could be classed as a Domainer and is heavily involved in the buying and selling of domains for profit (Of course none of us do this in the .com.au world as this is against policy):

Hi Occy, another First Time Poster (why today... hmmm) - I'd suggest to file a complaint with auDA and see what they say. I'm confident we have done absolutely nothing untoward through reasons I've already explained.

I have. And I suggest others do the same. If Netalliance are successful in keeping these names then they obviously have a huge advantage over all us common people. Don't forget that being a domainer is being in a highly competitive market. It is about being the first to register a name.

For the last time, YES, the NR alliance gives us a massive benefit in snapping domains but no more so than D8 and DW.

There is a difference between snapping names as a service and snapping names for your own gains. That is the reason for regulation and policy. In fact auDA even published a clarification of policy to specifically cover these actions.

How many previous auctions have domains been snapped up by NetAlliance while under their current Joint-Venture?
Soj, none. Not through lack of trying but we have some stiff competition – hence our testing & refinding.

I noticed that Publishing Australia - I believe this is a Netfleet associated company - has snapped a few domains like insuranceguide.com.au in the past few weeks through a Netregistry/Planet Domain/Md Hosting company. At the time I though it was a failure by D8 and DW to grab the names as they both had bids on in the auction. Maybe it was.

Occy

 

[DomainMarketPlace]

So I have a suggestion for you which could smooth the waters. You've proved your system works, so why not do something very remarkable and hold a mini-auction to onsell these domains? All profits of course over and above your registration fee should be given to a charity of your choice.

You'd have to wait 6 months atleast for that Ned unless you are talking a Client Requested Delete and then another drop auction?

 

[Occy]

So I have a suggestion for you which could smooth the waters. You've proved your system works, so why not do something very remarkable and hold a mini-auction to onsell these domains

That suggest front running to me. I say they just drop the names.

It would be interesting to hear what the registrar has to say about this as technically if any discretion is found then that registrar would also be held accountable.

Occy

 

[neddy]

You'd have to wait 6 months atleast for that Ned unless you are talking a Client Requested Delete and then another drop auction?

Another drop auction would be nice DMP! LOL!

I may be wrong, but I do believe you can apply to onsell your domains earlier than the 6 month period if there are special circumstances. I think these would qualify!

Better to do this than perhaps face a lengthy investigation by the regulatory body - and the good possibility of being stripped of them anyway.

 

[Shaun]

Hi Guys,

Thought I'd pipe in and add my two cents worth.

Everyone has to go through a testing phase, to see if new systems and so forth work, in this case, NetFleet have proven their system to work. I can only assume that D8 and DW went through a similar testing process when they began.

I think if this domain wasn't so competitive then this testing would have been accepted, however in this example the domain was clearly very valuable.

In saying this though, isn't it good for NetFleet to have tested and proven their system against D8 and DW on the most competitive domain to drop to date?

Does this not give you added confidence that you can now backorder through NetFleet and purchase a valuable domain for $5.95?

I agree D8, DW and NetFleet have an advantage over the rest of us, but now we have three options to be able to get these domains which will drive competition amongst these three companies.

 

[Occy]

Hi Shaun

Are you involved with Publishing Australia a Netfleet shareholder. I noticed you were promoting photographers.com.au recently.

Occy

 

[geodomains]

Hi Shaun,
Agree that Netfleets service is great and no one will question that.

What David has done, he's proved his snapper service works, but he's also opened up a conflict of interest being involved with a registrar.

What is upsetting everyone is a Registrar should not be registering domains for profit.

If every registrar did this, no one would get any premium domains.

In hindsight David should have not had the registrar owning half of these domains.

Don

 

[neddy]

Hi Shaun,

As per my previous post, I commend NetFleet for introducing a new service, and of course they need to test it. As Occy suggested, they have been testing it for a while!

But there are tests - and there are tests!

What is wrong in this case is that the entity that acquired the names is a joint venture between a Registrar (NR) and NetFleet. That is clearly against auDA policy - you can't as a Registrar profit from this type of activity.

Please allow me to give an analogy.

Let's say a State Government department released sought after blocks of land to the public by way of auction. The auction goes ahead through the proper processes, and the winners are there for all to see. However, unbeknown to “Joe Public”, one of the bureacrats of the Government department has formed an alliance with a property developer, and they circumvent the process and “snap up” the blocks of land very cheaply – much cheaper than the public auction. The people who thought they won would have every right to be upset. Can you imagine the media outcry?

Cheers, Ned

 

[Data Glasses]

would we know if we backordered a name via netfleet if anyone else has also back ordered it , sorry this question may have been asked , but like to know if wasting time and money .......just interested to know, cheers

 

[Shaun]

Hi Shaun

Are you involved with Publishing Australia a Netfleet shareholder. I noticed you were promoting photographers.com.au recently.

Occy

Hi Occy,

No, I am not a shareholder of Publishing Australia or NetFleet. We are a web development company who developed Photographers.com.au in partnership with the domain owner.

 

[Occy]

Hi Occy,

No, I am not a shareholder of Publishing Australia or NetFleet. We are a web development company who developed Photographers.com.au in partnership with the domain owner.

The domain owner being Publishing Australia who is closely related to Netfleet. I am just tyring to get a feel for who is who in this tangled web.

Good work by the way.

Occy

 

[paz]

Hi netfleet,

Can you confirm how your backordering service works?

You say you have had to test it on such a hottly contested domain and others seem to be alluding to the fact that they can now have confidence in picking up names by using your service, but doesn't your name catching service only work the next business day at 5pm i.e: does not compete with D8?

I guess my question is why are you trying to say that you had to get townsville.net.au to "test" your new drop catching script, when your new script needs to do little more than put in 1 request the following business day at 5pm?

From your other post:

Orders will only kick in at 5pm the following day (so don't bother trying to backorder Domain8's or DW's lists! This is meant to be a different service to that not a competing one!!)

I'm happy to be set straight if I have missed something along the way but I'm just trying to understand this whole situation.

 

[paz]

would we know if we backordered a name via netfleet if anyone else has also back ordered it , sorry this question may have been asked , but like to know if wasting time and money .......just interested to know, cheers

Domains can only be backordered by 1 person.

But I don't see the point in backordering any decent domain, because netfleet wont try and get it until the next business day at 5pm where as D8 will have well and truly hammered the registry by then to get any decent name?

 

[Data Glasses]

.

Let's say a State Government department released sought after blocks of land to the public by way of auction. The auction goes ahead through the proper processes, and the winners are there for all to see. However, unbeknown to “Joe Public”, one of the bureacrats of the Government department has formed an alliance with a property developer, and they circumvent the process and “snap up” the blocks of land very cheaply – much cheaper than the public auction. The people who thought they won would have every right to be upset. Can you imagine the media outcry?

Cheers, Ned

I bet this has been attempted in the past ????? dont trust them , yes this thread has opened a real can of worms , at worst quite interesting to read

 

[Data Glasses]

Domains can only be backordered by 1 person.

so if my order was accepted i am the only one or the order would not go through ?, thanks paz

 

[paz]

so if my order was accepted i am the only one or the order would not go through ?, thanks paz

Yes I assume they would not take payment if someone has already backordered the domain.

From the netfleet domain snapper page:

Please note however, there can only be 1 person allocated for each domain, so don't risk losing out - place your backorder today.

 

[MythBuster]

Hi Guys,

It's important to me that our reputation is beyond reproach so I'm going to carefully address each of the issues that have been raised. May as well start with First Time Poster, Mythbuster (wonder what prompted his first ever post today of all days?)


The only point worth considering that he's brought up is the one regarding auDA policy which I’ll address in a sec.

Let me ask a couple of questions:

MB (or anybody), if you have any idea whatsoever how we can launch a backorder service without testing & refining how we snap competitive names, then let me know.

As for the issue of Policy. As I said, we registered the domain as part of our testing. I have no question that this complies 100% with policy. That part of the policy is intended to prevent 'warehousing' of domains by registrars. Considering that townsville.com.au is the 2nd domain to be registered by NetAlliance (the first being Netfleet.com.au), I don't think anyone can accuse us of that.

However I'm sure auDA are well aware of what has happened and I urge anyone who feels 'badly done by' to lodge a complaint.

What a load of cr*p David. I find it interesting that it took you so long to formulate your response. From what I've seen in the past, you normally respond to posts quite quickly. Conferring with your partners were you?

I work in the industry - what you and NetRegistry (a Registrar bound by auDA's policies) have done is just plain wrong. You have acquired domains for profit pure and simple. No amount of spin-doctoring is going to change that fact.

As for acquiring just one domain (Townsville), what about the other 4 or 5 that you also acquired yesterday?

I hope auDA looks into your other recent purchases utilising the umbrella services of NR. Whilst these may avoid legal ramifications, they clearly show the total conflict of interest you have. You need to choose whether to be a service provider (gamekeeper), or a domainer (poacher). You can't have it both ways.

I have lodged a complaint with auDA, and I see several others have done the same thing. Do yourselves a favour and voluntarily Client Delete these names - or you and your partner can face the possible consequences.

This is not going to go away quickly.

 

[DomainMarketPlace]

I think it's worth noting that AusRegistry does provide a test environment (OTE) that enables registrars to test their scripts.

You can even open up multiple connections and set test names to drop.

Perhaps taking on some beta testers at no cost would of been a more appropriate way to test the speed in comparison to competing drop catchers.

 

[soj]

David just a question, you say that the first domain NetAlliance had registered was NetFleet.com.au and the second domain was Townsville.com.au

Why would you release a backorder service, charging people money for something that had never been proven before? If you had tested it before hand and caught some expiring domains, then Townsville.com.au would NOT have been the second domain NetAlliance had registered.

Then to really test it, you picked up 4 or 5 other domains on top of Townsville.com.au

 

[Mark]

Hi Guys

Just to hopefully help answer a couple of technical q's

I guess my question is why are you trying to say that you had to get townsville.net.au to "test" your new drop catching script, when your new script needs to do little more than put in 1 request the following business day at 5pm?

The idea of our current backorder service is targeted at domains that have not expired (eg the ones listed on D8/DW). It is aimed at people who have had their heart set on a particular domain for a while, or fancy the .net.au equivalent of their domain, or after doing their homework, realise that a domain will shortly expire and are taking an calculated risk that it will expire etc etc. Let's say D8/DW have 25 domains per day that have bids on, the nature of backorders means the probability of us having to catch 25 domains a day is absolutely minute. In other words, we are going for far, far less domains in any one day, which means with backorders we can be competitive and successful today, however we are still testing whether in an auction scenario we can be competitive.

so if my order was accepted i am the only one or the order would not go through ?, thanks paz

Correct - 100% first come first served. One person per domain.

I think it's worth noting that AusRegistry does provide a test environment (OTE) that enables registrars to test their scripts.

You can even open up multiple connections and set test names to drop.

Perhaps taking on some beta testers at no cost would of been a more appropriate way to test the speed in comparison to competing drop catchers.

Ausregistrys test environment is not an exact replica of live. There are many query limitations in live that simply do not exist in dev. The live environment is the only way to conduct a proper test before releasing a product. Believe me, if we had an exact test environment, we would be testing all day, every day with it. Remember in live, you have 1 go per day - when the domains drop. Apart from that, you modify software, get it ready for the following day, wait, then test again. Its an incredibly laborious process.

I hope this helps to explain somewhat our methodology here. We are hoping to have a publicly available system to backorder expired domain names (dropping following day) available very soon (especially in light of today's concerns). We as much as you want this released ASAP, for two reasons, 1) We want you to be happy spenders 2) It is more profitable for Netfleet to release such a service, rather than hoard domain names.

Of course, actions speak louder than words so I hope to get back to you with an update very shortly

Thanks
Mark